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NORN KJOKL • View topic - making norn out of oldnorse

NORN KJOKL

The Orkney & Shetland Norn Forum
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:55 am 
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Hej, as you know i've tried to translate old norse texts to norn by the help of the phonology, but i failed.

But i noticed some thing, i am right when i say that you ignore the rare and sporadic sound changes which happened in norn, and only use the most regular ones for nynorn?

If that is true, it would be a great help in the future if you made a phonetic list (as you did for orkney and shetland norn) for nynorn.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:26 pm 
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Hrafn wrote:
But i noticed some thing, i am right when i say that you ignore the rare and sporadic sound changes which happened in norn, and only use the most regular ones for nynorn?
Well, that's mentioned nowhere exactly that way, but in general you are right, we go the safest path. But on the other hand we are always open to discussions. What sounds are you referring to?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm 
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I found two examples where i failed despite i used the list we already have (there is more, but i am not going to search for all of them)

My examples are from Regin Smiður

From old norse "eystantil" i made "østantil", but it was corrected to "estentil". In the phonetic list we have the following rule: Old norse "ey" can turn into long ø, long "e" but only rarely, and "ō" after palatal.

another one is old norse "mold" which i just thought was "mold" in nynorn. and old norse "o" should become "ȯ(i), ɔ(i) (before palat.)", according to the list.

Now, the dictionary show the form "esten" and "møld".
But i wonder, would it be impossible to make a perfectly regular phonetic list for nynorn?

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Hrafnsmærki skal væifa í vindinum á ný aftr, Þat sum es in sanna Danibrók!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:02 pm 
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The ey > ø is mainly an East Nordic development. It's AFAIK, not found in West Nordic at all. Also the monophthongisation of ey to e is common in Faroese but only when ey is followed by two consonants, so 'eystantil' is actually pronounced as 'estantil' (as you undoubtedly can hear in the song).

The mold > møld has me stomped though.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:29 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:49 am 
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Damn, I can't believe I missed that entire section. However:

3.1.5. occurs in most dialects of Suðuroy: jeg (with a silent -g) (It's possible however, that it's the same evolution as in Icelandic. I'll look it up) (you mention it in 4.3.1.)
3.1.6. is also slightly incorrect, since the nn > nj and ll > lj are known in certain dialects of Suðuroy, so the aux verbs kunna and skula are pronounced as if spelled kunja and skulja. I don't know of a palatalisation of tt but again I'll look it up.

Similarly to Norn, U-umlaut in modern Faroese is lexicalised, while it looks like Norn has lost it completely, which strikes me as odd. OK, it happened in Norwegian too (while Danish has traces of it: barn > børn), so whether this is external influence or a naturally occuring thing is a good question. In any case, I'm still prone to classify it as West Norse. Or Insular Norse if you prefer that way of classifying the languages.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:15 pm 
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