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NORN KJOKL • View topic - Phonetically / ethimologically orthographies in Faroese

NORN KJOKL

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:29 pm 
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FAROESE - An Overview and Reference Grammar (Höskuldur Thráinsson - Hjalmar P. Petersen - Jógvan í Lon Jacobsen - Zakaris Svabo Hansen) contains an entire chapter devoted to the history of the Faroese language and its written forms from the Seyðabræv to the current orthography.

Since we debated a lot on orthography (which, again, will be discussed after the English > Nynorn dictionary will be completed), I thought it would be interesting to post here a couple of examples taken from that grammar.

As we know, the currently used orthography is usually attributed to V. U. Hammershaimb (1819-1909). His original orthography, however, was first introduced in the journal "Annaler for nordisk Oldkyndighed" in 1846. In his final version, he followed the suggestions of Jón Sigurðsson, and was published in 1891.

1846
Norðan firi bigdina Eiði í Esturoi standa framman firi landi tveir stórir drengar sum líkjast manni og konu.
Um hesar drengarnar gengur sögnin í Førjun: at einusinni atlaði Ísland at flita Føroiar norður til sín, og
sendi tí ein stóran risa við konu síni eftir teimun. Tey bæði komu àt tí itsta berginun àf Esturoi, sum er
nevnt Eiðis kolli, og liggur longst ímóti útnorðingi.

1891*
Norðan fyri bygðina á Eiði [...] standa framman fyri landi tveir stórir drangar, sum kallast Risi og Kelling [...].
Um hesar drangarnar er søgnin, at einusinni ætlaði Ísland at flytja Føroyar norður til sín og sendi tí ein
stóran risa og konu hansara at fáa tær fluttar har norður. Tey komu bæði at tí ytsta berginum, sum kallast
Eiðskollur og longst ímoti útnyrðini.

Rough translation of the 1846 version: North of the village Eiði in Eysturoy two big cliffs stand off the shore and they look like a man and a woman. About these cliffs there is a story in the Faroes: once Iceland wanted to move the Faroes north to itself and sent a big giant and his wife to get them. They came to the outermost cliffs of Eysturoy, which are called Eiðiskollur and is furthest to the northwest.



Jakob (Jákup) Jakobsen (1864-1918) and his phonologically based orthography, compared to Hammershaimb's (and to Broyting).

Hammershaimb 1891: Mikines hevur eftir manna søgn verið flotoyggj. Ein maður í Sørvági, sum javnliga
róði út, ræddist illa stórhvalirnar úti á havi, og av tí at hann ikki átti bævur at styggja teir við, hevði hann til tess
tarvsmykju, sum hann kastaði í sjógvin, tá ið hvalir vóru nær staddir bátinum.

Dr. Jakobsen: Mikjenes hevur ættir manna sögn vere flotåiggj. Ain mävur y Sörváje, sum javnlia
róe út, raddist idla störkvälenar úte á häve, og äv ty hann ikkje åtte bävur á stiggja tair vi, hæie hann til tæss
tarvsmikjo, sum hann kastaje y sjægvin, tá y kvälir vóro när staddir bátenun.

Broyting**: Mikines hevir ettir manna søgn verið flotoyggj. Ein maður í Sørvági, sum javnliga
róði út, ræddist idla stórkvalirnar úti á havi, og af tí at hann ikki átti bævur at stiggja teir við, hevði hann til tess
tarvsmykju, sum hann kastaði í sjógvin, tá ið kvalir vóru nær staddir bátinun.

Roughly: According to the legend, Mikines used to be a floating island. A man in Sørvágur, who used to go fishing, was very much afraid of the big whales out in the ocean, and because he did not have the appropriate stinking material to scare them away, he used bull's dung instead and threw it into the ocean when the whales were close to the boat.

*) I've cut the original tale, because the 1891 version is longer and there are parts not included in the 1846 one.
**) "Broyting" is a compromise reached by the Føringafelag ('Society of the Faroese') - which published the paper Føringatíðindi. Jakobsen accepted it and used it for his later writings (like the Diplomatarium Færoense 1907).

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en so mykid j Hiatlande ad segs skillingar ok XL hrentadi leigan a huerium tolf manadum... ok þar til oll ol gogn sidan fyrir vttan kannur ok diska ok potta ok onnur elld gogn er hon mintisk ei huorsu morg voru (Húsavíkarbrøvini, 1403)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:37 pm 
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Although not etymological, I'd say J.J's ortography reflects faroese pronounciation quite accuratly.
But then again, many faroese dialects do not pronounce f.ex 'ei' as the 'ai' J.J uses. In Gøtu they say 'åi'. The dilemma when being strictly phonetical is that you have to choose one dialect to build on.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:18 pm 
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Eivind, and I guess we do NOT want to build a language upon one single dialect... That wouldn't be very clever!

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en so mykid j Hiatlande ad segs skillingar ok XL hrentadi leigan a huerium tolf manadum... ok þar til oll ol gogn sidan fyrir vttan kannur ok diska ok potta ok onnur elld gogn er hon mintisk ei huorsu morg voru (Húsavíkarbrøvini, 1403)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:45 pm 
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As a norwegian I can agree to that with a hand on my heart :-P I think Aasens method is a good one; a compromise of dialects, and when they differ to much you rely on etymology. And apply modern sound changes and such.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Let's see what our admins say about that.. Apparently it's a flat calm period: I haven't seen many comments lately. This thread here was opened in April, and nobody came to comment until today! :/

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en so mykid j Hiatlande ad segs skillingar ok XL hrentadi leigan a huerium tolf manadum... ok þar til oll ol gogn sidan fyrir vttan kannur ok diska ok potta ok onnur elld gogn er hon mintisk ei huorsu morg voru (Húsavíkarbrøvini, 1403)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:04 pm 
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Well must be almost discouraging, having to wait so long for response :-/
Yes that is what this forum is ment for, isn't it? Discussing different approches?
Will be interesting to hear the oppinion of the admins, if these things apply to nynorn as well.
From reading some earlier posts I've seen at least that an etymological spelling is regarded as a good solution.
Of course it is important to remember that the project still is in its early stages.
One just has to wait for replys :-P
But patience is a virtue, and the one who waits for something good does not wait in wain :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:25 am 
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Hei Eivind

I work on Orkney Nynorn and Have decided to go Aasen ' s way and favour compromise in spelling and optional grammatical features such as dative and genitive among others. I post some of my ideas out here when I get more time and a proper internet connection.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:19 pm 
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Great! Looking forward to seeing it, Kråka! :-D


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:01 pm 
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Sorry to everyone that it took me so long to reply, I was very busy in the last half a year.

As it's been explained a few times before, the existing Nynorn orthography follows the etymological principle (the "Hammershaimb" one) as opposed to phonetic (the "Svabo"/"Jakobsen" one), read more about it here: . This allows us to use the same orthography for different dialects (of Shetland Nynorn at least), see examples here: http://nornlanguage.x10.mx/index.php?nynorn_dial.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:35 pm 
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well it would be more wierd if you spent ALL your time on The forum :-P Great to hear from you again though, Hnolt! :-)

Yeah, I mean out of my limited knowledge, the ortography of nynorn is etymological, exept for one example i can think of 'vor=ours'. But that's just 'flisespikkeri'.
The point about using the same ortography for differnent dialects I like very much! :-)


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