NORN KJOKL

The Orkney & Shetland Norn Forum
It is currently Tue May 17, 2022 11:31 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 100
Hi, i started this one because i think we need talk about the grammar of Orkney norn.

We dont have so much data so it is important to decide what to do. And as we discover more and more stuf and get new ideas we can post them here.

_________________
Hrafnsmærki skal væifa í vindinum á ný aftr, Þat sum es in sanna Danibrók!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Infinitve -o
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 100
I'll start with suggest the infinitive ending of verbs is -o
I searched in Marwicks dictionary and found "skeeto" [´skito] (ON: skita).
The original /a/ has gone over to /o/, just as we see in nouns and in the imperative form (fordo < forða).

_________________
Hrafnsmærki skal væifa í vindinum á ný aftr, Þat sum es in sanna Danibrók!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:10 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 333
The ending -o in Marwick's Orkney Norn plays almost the same role as -a in Shetland Norn of Jakobsen, i.e. it is to be found everywhere, see this verse as an example:

http://nornlanguage.x10.mx/index.php?shettxt/21gryle

Originally this -o came from the -o/u ending of accusative in the weak feminine declension (this also happened in several Norwegian dialects: vika > viku > vuku,vukku 'week'). As for Orkney Nynorn, we will certainly keep the ending -o for the weak feminine names, but I'm not sure we should bring it into any other declension or conjugation.

The imperative form "fordo" can also have a trace of the original "du/þú" (you) < ON forða þú/forðaðu.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 100
Funny. From that example it still seems that the Orkney -o have roots in norn, not in scots.

But this is not about nouns, it is about verbs. How and why do you think the change in the infinitive form: skíta > skíto happened?

_________________
Hrafnsmærki skal væifa í vindinum á ný aftr, Þat sum es in sanna Danibrók!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:35 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 333
Yes, you're right that it was originally Norn, alghough the examples we have in Orkney are coming from directly Orkney Scots (still being Norn words). I just had to be more accurate here... ,)
Quote:
But this is not about nouns, it is about verbs. How and why do you think the change in the infinitive form: skíta > skíto happened?
By analogy. First it started in the weak feminine declension: brinno < brenna, then it found its way into other substantive classes: arvo < arfi/arfa, herto < hjarta, bano- < barna- (gen.pl.) etc., and then it finally came to verbs. This is certainly a clear testimony of the corruption of the old Norse grammatical system.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 100
Wow, i excluded analogy from nouns to verbs. It seems really extreme.
Paralel phonetical changes are normalt though.

I am going to get my hands on some book about the last time of norn. And also one about Orkneynorn in 1750 =)

But well, i profed one thing with "skito", the infinitive ending was preserved to the death on norn, it was not droped. And yeah, i know not anyone says that it did ^^

There is some interesting text orginially from the norn periode described on Marwicks book. I will take a look at them too (I remeber dativ, plural -im)

_________________
Hrafnsmærki skal væifa í vindinum á ný aftr, Þat sum es in sanna Danibrók!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:52 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 333
Infinitives and nouns morphologically do not differ in English/Scots, so no wonder they started mixing in Norn during its latest period (down to the influence from Scots).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Dative case
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 100
Hej =)

I've been reading alittle about Orkney norn and i got the impression that the old dative occurse in conection with prepositions. Just as it does lollandsk (The danish dialect my grandmother who is 87 years old speaks). She told me how her parents "sad og ventede på bænki", when she visited them. Same thing can be seen if you look at danish 200 year old poetry. We still use it rarely "jeg har i sinde at, det er kommet mig i hænde, det var på tide".

About Orkneynorn we have:

Masculin and neuter dative:agairy < af garði
asee < (yfir, undir) Ási
Brya-grunyie < Breiða-grunni
Hoosavelji < í Húsavelli

feminine
leggin < í lǫgginni
(in) laaginy < Nor. lag(n)ing + -inni (??)

But we also have an old riddle with norn origin (See Marwick - The Orkney norn, page xxxvi): linkim Bill y handy
linkim < löngum (masc, dat, pl.)
y handi < í hendi (masc, dat, sg.)

What seems to be the rule is that the dative (with a locative function) occur with preposition. The danish dative also function as locative as far i know.

I know this is poor evidence but that is just how it is when we talk about Orkneynorn, I also know the lords prayer show both dative and lack of it, this is probably only confusion, and just like shetland norn confusion is no reason drop it completly. Besides, Marwick says there is more riddles and games to do some research on. I am going to get Olsen, Magnus (1932) Orknø-norn og norrønt dikting på Orknøerne

_________________
Hrafnsmærki skal væifa í vindinum á ný aftr, Þat sum es in sanna Danibrók!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dative case
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:59 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 333
Hrafn wrote:
I've been reading alittle about Orkney norn and i got the impression that the old dative occurse in conection with prepositions. Just as it does lollandsk (The danish dialect my grandmother who is 87 years old speaks). She told me how her parents "sad og ventede på bænki", when she visited them. Same thing can be seen if you look at danish 200 year old poetry. We still use it rarely "jeg har i sinde at, det er kommet mig i hænde, det var på tide
I fully agree with your general conclusion, although some of your examples can be disputed:

1. -i in lollandsk can just correspond to the article -en, like in ulvi, bjørni in the following text:
Quote:
Bjørni krøv åp i træet få å hål uvkig.
-Uen ser di uv? sejer ulvi.
http://www.lokalhistorien.grytner.dk/hankat.htm
2. Dan. sinde - ON has sinni 'mind, disposition, temper'.

3. på tide - this is often mention as a survival of dative in Danish, bit in fact this must be a hypercorrect form, because in the old language tíð didn't have any ending in dative. So it must have come either from masculine/neuter, or from the only strong female noun hǫnd which did have the ending in this case - hendi (perhaps analogically from masc. fótr - fœti 'foot'??).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 100
Method and shedule for orkneynorn reconstruction

Hej

I got an idea, i am not going to start a new project now, but here is the idea:

By taking the same word in orkneynorn and shetlandnorn we can see how the phonology developed developed in the two languages compared to each other. In that way we can say that sound A in shetlandnorn, would be sound B in orneynorn.

I did start on the shedule, to ilustrate what i means.
Take a look here: http://img215.imageshack.us/f/unavngivetvp.png/

Such an shedule is better than guessing, and I have a similar idea for making the Caitnessnorn dialect, but not the same =)

_________________
Hrafnsmærki skal væifa í vindinum á ný aftr, Þat sum es in sanna Danibrók!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group